How does “Times of The Gentiles” stop Gentiles from being Saved
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- This topic has 10 replies, 4 voices, and was last updated 11 months ago by Timothy.
June 30, 2022 at 11:36 am #2705
I have a question about the Times of the Gentiles?
This is interesting as this means that there will not be any new tribulation saints from the Gentiles and I assume only from the Jews.
I have read all the below scriptures and surrounding text and have not gotten the reason why the Gentiles will not be able to be saved. The breathe of God is still on the earth and us tribulation saints can baptise people.
I understand the principle that once the Temple has been built then the times of the gentiles ends, but what does God do to stop Gentiles from being saved.
Christians in the end times will not understand this unless something specific is made plain for all to understand. They will question why what worked a week before the temple was built and temple sacrifice started and after people dont have their sins washed away and they still have a sin consciousness and have not been set free. God’s word on who can be saved seems open until the time of Jesus return.
Luke 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, 26 And so all Israel will be saved.
Tim wrote in response to Anders question:- The “times of the Gentiles” in Luke 21:24 refers to the extent of the second (Roman) exile. Jerusalem being “trodden underfoot” is a statement that harkens back to the first Babylonian Exile, where Jerusalem was said to be in “desolation” (compare Leviticus 26:33-34; 2 Chronicles 36:20-21).
Lev 26:33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.
Lev 26:34 Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.
2 Chronicles 36:20-21 And those who escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon, where they became servants to him and his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, 21 to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.
June 30, 2022 at 1:22 pm #2706
Unless I am misunderstanding you, you are saying that when the “times of the gentiles’, or “fullness of the gentiles” comes in that gentiles will no longer be able to enter a covenant relationship with Christ?
Those phrases, IMO, do not mean that gentiles cannot come to Christ, it is just a reference to the length of time God has turned away from Israel. Once that time is over, which is 1960 years from the time it began, their hearts will be turned back to the Father and vice versa. This does not mean that gentiles will be in exile in the same manner that Israel was. Gentiles would still be able to come to Christ. While the phrase “tribulation saints” is a phrase coined by the pre trib camp, I believe I understand how you are using it.
Even though Israel is currently in exile, that does not mean that individuals cannot come to Christ, but their hearts have been hardened as stated in Romans 11. When this all changes, that will be the beginning of Daniels 70th week. All of this prophecy stuff is enveloped in the exiles, once we understand those, everything begins to clear up.
Not sure I helped you any, but I thought maybe you were under the impression that gentiles cannot be “saved” once the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. That isn’t so much about gentiles as it is attention being turned back to Israel as they will be allowed to return.
If there is a specific passage that I am not recalling regarding the gentiles can no longer find salvation, please let me know in case me thinking your assessment is an inference rather than an explicit statement of scripture.
Love in Christ brother
June 30, 2022 at 4:43 pm #2709
Thanks for the reply.
That makes sense.
However in BBI XI:28 (Revelation 12-14 Intro, Part 2), Tim says that ”the times of the Gentiles” will last until the beginning of the tribulation, then no more Gentiles will be saved.
Anders stated this is his question to Tim about the question and I heard it to. I am currently going through the Revelation teaching again and came across it.
So I just wanted to know firstly is this what Tim meant and then based on which scriptural foundation.
July 1, 2022 at 9:35 am #2710
I would have to listen to that teaching again. I must have not caught that the gentiles would no longer be allowed to come to salvation. I viewed the “fullness of the gentiles” more to refer to the length of time of the Roman exile. It seems odd to me that the door would be closed on the gentiles at the beginning of Daniels 70th week.
We will wait for Tim to clarify.
July 1, 2022 at 11:33 am #2713
I think just using the term “until the times of Gentiles have come in” implies that no more will be able to come in.
Why would God even mention this event if it did not mean something specific which is important?
Maybe it relates to the gospel having been preached in all the gentile nations of the world so there is no excuse for mankind.
July 1, 2022 at 1:00 pm #2714
I will be interested to see what Tim says on this. In that phrase “until the times of the gentiles comes in”, I have always viewed the “coming in” to apply to the “times” rather than the “gentiles”. Meaning, until the fullness of the exile is fulfilled, which is Israel’s being cut off, making way for gentiles to be grafted in. I need to understand why gentiles would then be cutoff before Christs return. Perhaps I have been mistaken thinking it was just a phrase referring to the duration of the Roman exile.
July 5, 2022 at 11:16 am #2716
I agree with Randy’s explanation. The phrase in Rom. 11:25 is “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” It is a reference to the completion of a predetermined period of time, not to a specific number of people, since individuals are not predetermined to salvation (as in Calvinism), however time periods are predetermined (see Acts 1:7; Heb. 1:1 LGV footnotes). For the idea of the “fullness” (completion) of a predetermined period of time, see Gal. 4:4 & Eph. 1:10.
There is a similar statement in Luke 21:24, “And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled” (NKJV). IMO, Paul had this statement from Jesus in mind when he wrote the statement in Rom. 11. It is only recorded in Luke’s Gospel, and Paul sometimes referred to Luke’s Gospel as “my Gospel,” since Luke was Paul’s assistant and wrote his Gospel while accompanying Paul in his mission to the gentiles.
Also, note that in both of these passages the context is really about Israel and Jerusalem, not the Gentiles. In Luke 21 the subject is the duration of the time set apart for Israel’s second exile from the land (1960 years), which is characterized by the “desolation” of Jerusalem, meaning no priesthood or Temple (cf. Matt. 23:38; Luke 21:5-6), just as in the first exile (Jer. 7:8-12; Jer. 19:8; Jer. 22:1-12; Jer. 26:1-12). In Romans 11 the subject is the length of time of Israel’s imposed “blindness” which coincides with the second exile. In both passages the gentiles are mostly a footnote, which Paul then employed to stress the great opportunity that God was giving to the remaining nations to receive a blessing due to Israel’s judgement, since Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles and that was his focus.
Also, note that the trampling of Jerusalem by the gentiles in Luke 21 is for the duration of Israel’s second exile, and then it ends. This is because of the brief period allotted to Israel’s national repentance, when God renews the “covenant” for one week (7 years). During this time the Temple worship is to be reinstated as described in Rev. 11:1. The 2 witnesses will prophesy for the first 1260 days, then be killed at the time of the Abomination of Desolation. Then according to the parenthetical statement in Rev. 11:2 Jerusalem will be trampled again for the remaining 42 months.
One final point. In Matt. 24:14 Jesus stated that the Gospel of the Kingdom must be proclaimed in all nations, and then the end will come. IMO, this is a set period of time that corresponds to Israel’s second (1960-year) exile. It is a time marker for when the 70th week will commence, and the “blindness” upon Israel will be lifted allowing them time for national repentance as prophesied by Moses in Deut. 30. So in all of these statements of Scripture, no reference is ever made to the total number of individuals who will be, or can be, saved. As Randy alluded, even though Israel is in “blindness” nationally some Jews are still saved during this age. Consequently, just because the benchmark is reached at the beginning of the 70th week regarding the Gospel having been proclaimed to all nations, this does not mean that on an individual basis no one can share the Gospel or that no one can be saved. The opportunity for repentance and salvation is open for all individuals until God gives up on them individually (as described in Rom. 1:18-32), or after having been a believer they apostatize from the Faith (as in Heb. 6:4-8 & 10:24-31), or when someone takes the mark of the beast (Rev. 14:9-10).
IMO, it is important to distinguish between what God says about His overall plan and its timetable vs. what He says about individuals regarding salvation.
July 7, 2022 at 4:00 am #2738Anders GParticipant
I believe Rev 14:6-7 proves that genties may be saved during the tribulation:
[Rev 14:6-7 NKJV] 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting *gospel to preach* to those who dwell on the earth–*to every nation*, tribe, tongue, and people– 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for *the hour of His judgment* has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
“the hour of His judgement” is the tribulation and then the gospel is preached to every nation.
July 7, 2022 at 11:56 am #2751
Thanks, Randy and Anders. Also, I think it is important to recognize that the “Gospel” is qualified as (literally) “the everlasting Gospel” (“the permanent good message” – LGV). Jesus said (in Matt. 24:15-15), “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Therefore when you see the`abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place whoever reads, let him understand”.
“This Gospel of the Kingdom” is the TRUE and COMPLETE Gospel which contains the true HOPE of the coming Kingdom. It is “the Faith” that was introduced first with Abel, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc., all of the saints of Hebrews 11, and also includes us. The “HOPE” of this Gospel is consistent from Genesis to Revelation. It is the seventh Day (7th Millennium) our Sabbath Rest, the Kingdom. This true Faith has been administered by the very same High Priest since creation, who is “Priest of the Most-High God,” “King of Salem” (Jerusalem) “King of Peace,” and “King of Righteousness.” (Heb. 7)
Maybe we ought to consider whether a “Gospel” which is a later fabrication of Rome contains a fictitious hope borrowed from Greek mythology and philosophy can satisfy this criterion. After all, “gospel” means “good news” and necessarily points to the resurrection and inheritance which is linked to the Kingdom, not to heaven. The “hope” contained in “good news” preached by many Christians is allegedly to be realized when the believer DIES not when he is raised bodily at Jesus’ return. The so-called “Gospel” of a heavenly destiny is not really “the good news of the Kingdom.”
July 7, 2022 at 4:49 pm #2755
I think the Gospel which has been taught in the West has been sadly lacking that a Kingdom has been prepared for us when Jesus comes back. There has been no hope given to people when there is so much due to what the Kingdom means to us as children of God.
The focus has been just getting saved and then going to heaven and the resurrection has been seen just as an add on. Most dont know what happens at the resurrection and what it will mean for them.
It has been a joy to finally understand the full gospel which has the over arching theme for the Gospel.
So many have not understood that God created earth for us and all that is in it and around it for us to enjoy. That He is going to fulfill that desire for us by Jesus coming back to rule and reign so we can enjoy what God has prepared for those that love Him.
It is you Tim that has opened my eyes to all this and helped me to piece together what I had learned over the years.
I believe that God and Jesus are well pleased with you. You have sought answers and God has led you to find them. You have not given up and I have no doubt that you had a number of times that it crossed your mind.
Blessings, Grace and Peace Unto You from
Raymond and Sarah my lovely wife.
July 9, 2022 at 12:27 pm #2762
Thank you, Raymond. That means a great deal to me. Yes, I have had a lot of opposition, and been on the verge of quitting several times. But each time I have received a fresh wind in my sails, and a new compass heading, and some new friends (and some faithful old friends) who have kept this little vessel afloat. Plus my wife won’t let me quit. 🙂
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