Karl Kozlowski
Forum Replies Created
-
Posts
-
Another point to bear in mind regarding Matthew 24:34 in particular:
In Mark’s parallel account, the Greek word for “until” is mechris, which emphasizes a point in time when something stops being the case. So, if preterists are right, then all of Jesus’ contemporaries, INCLUDING THE APOSTLE JOHN, should’ve died when Jerusalem was destroyed. Yet Josephus records that the Romans spared many people who were “in their flourishing age”; this would’ve included people who were children or even teenagers when Jesus was crucified.
Thanks (sorry for not saying that more often, by the way; I’ve GOT to get better about giving concluding feedback).
Speaking of the word “hour”, I’m curious about your take on this argument that John 5:28-29 teaches only one mass resurrection:
Dispensationalists argue that the word “hour” in John 5:28 is being used of a broad span of time. Pentecost tells us that Jesus is talking about the “resurrection program,” which will span over a thousand years. While the word “hour” may be used of a “season” of time (e.g. Jn 5:35 – “for a while”), the process within that “hour” must be constant to use it this way. When Paul spoke of causing the Corinthians sorrow for a while, it was only true while the sorrow was in progress (II Cor 7:8). Notice that the condition (sorrow) endures for the entire period rather than being on and off, or starting and stopping. Associating this use to resurrections separated by 1,000 years is a misuse of the word “hour.”
Looking at a few other New Testament examples verifies this view. The hour of Galatians 2:5 was a period of consistent fidelity through that entire period of time. It was not on and off faithfulness. Paul was away from the Thessalonians for an “hour,” but the condition of being away was consistent through the whole period (I Th 2:17). He was not away for an “hour,” but came back several times during that “hour.” Jesus told the Samaritan woman that an hour was coming (Jn 4:21-23). She could understand that as meaning a period of time was coming, but would not have thought that period of time would have “true worship” characterized this way only now and then. When the word hour is used as an extended period of time, it refers to events consistently true throughout that period. In this case, the worship of the Father will be of a particular nature, and will hold true throughout. [Additional examples: John 2:4; 16:2, 32; Philemon 1:5; Rev 3:10.] Spreading five resurrections over 1,007 years of time is an unacceptable use of the word “hour.”Now, aside from noting that his citations of John 2:4 & Philemon 5 as examples are nonsense (the word doesn’t even occur in the Philemon passage!), I’d retort that the Greek phrasing of Philippians 3:11 is incompatible with any more or any less than 2 mass resurrections, so John 5:28-29 must be interpreted in light of it, not vice-versa. But can you come up with an even better response regarding the word for “hour”?
And where do you suppose he gets the idea that Dispensationalists teach 5 mass resurrections? I’ve only seen up to 3 in their system!
So, I’m not sure if my previous reply got lost somehow after I edited it, but I’ve already incorporated much of the logic your closing question led me to into my analysis, and I’m definitely satisfied with what I’ve learned from following that line of reasoning.
There’s just one thing I’d like clarification on at this point: I’m inclined to understand 2 Thessalonians 1:9-10 as saying that the wicked who are killed when Jesus returns WON’T partake in the “second resurrection”, since they’ll be annihilated on the same day the first resurrection occurs. Would this also apply to the Antichrist and False Prophet, or will they participate in the “resurrection of judgment” (John 5:29), in light of Isaiah 14:9 implying that the Antichrist would be in Hades once he dies in the Lake of Fire and Revelation 20:13 saying that Hades gives up the dead that are in it at the Great White Throne Judgment? I’m inclined to think it’s the latter, but what do you think?
For the record, Peter, I’m inclined to agree with you. I just want to be able to rigorously justify it.
Yes, I very much would like a little more peace of mind on that front.
Peter, I understand that “belly” implies the depths of Sheol, not a literal belly. But how could Jonah have cried from a state (I’ve seen Tim explain elsewhere that Sheol is an abstract concept, not a physical location) where nobody is conscious?
I guess I’m trying to get a solid answer for why a mention of someone being in Sheol is to be taken metaphorically this once in the entire Bible, without the answer coming off as arbitrary, ad hoc, or “making excuses to explain away a contradiction (with the passages you referenced in one of your responses)”. Indeed, I’ve seen someone try to explain away all the passages teaching an unconscious state for the dead by saying “these passages come from poetic books and passages, so they weren’t necessarily to be taken literally”. How would you justify statements of people being unconscious in Sheol in Psalms being meant literally, but a statement of someone being conscious in Sheol in Jonah being meant metaphorically, rather than vice-versa? See how it comes off as arbitrary in both directions? I’m looking for an explanation that ISN’T arbitrary.
I know how many other camps make up metaphorical interpretations for passages just because they don’t like taking them literally, or vice-versa. In light of Jonah 2:3-9 being meant literally, I’m looking for a non-arbitrary reason for why Jonah 2:2 SHOULDN’T be. Does that make sense?
I agree with most of that, Peter, but then why did Jonah use the phrasing “from the belly of Sheol”, rather than something like “from the edge of Sheol”?
But the events of Matthew 27:52-53 took place at least two Passovers after the events of John 5, per John 6:4 & 11:55. Does it really make sense to claim that a time “now is” (νῦν ἐστιν), with reference to an event that’ll happen over a year from now? Sorry if my tone seems bad, but I want to make sure the methodology behind these conclusions is as non-arbitrary as we’re aiming for it to be.
I’ve seen a discussion on this word in a book. It mentions that some scholars have tried to analyze its potential etymology and have offered alternative renderings, including the following:
“Give us this day our continuous bread.”
“Give us this day our supersubstantial bread.”
“Give us this day bread for our sustenance.”
“Give us this day our bread for this day [i.e., “our daily bread”].”It then adds, “Each of these renderings has its supporters, each makes sense in the context, and each was derived from the limited information that is available.”
I, too, have wondered how Tim was going to render it in Matthew 6:11, so I’m glad I’m not the only one!
I’m checking the Masoretic Text for the petuha & cetuma markers for where the contextual units are divided, so those portions typically wind up being included in my analysis anyway (including the examples you cited)! But now that you’ve mentioned it, I’m definitely going back to check whether I’ve missed any!
I’m actually working on an analysis where I go through every “Day of the Lord” passage in the order they were written. One of the big things I’m paying attention to is how the Hebrew verb tenses indicate the order in which the events occur relative to each other. I’ve so far made it through every instance in Obadiah, Joel, Amos, & Isaiah, and the details are compatible with every instance of “the Day of the Lord” referring to the same literal day (of course, some other events mentioned in the passages occur before, like the sun & moon darkening; or commence on that day, in line with Tim’s examples of details that play out over time). Indeed, Zephaniah 2:3-4 demands that it’s a literal day: “Seek ye Jehovah, all ye meek of the earth, that have kept his ordinances; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye will be hid in <b>the day of Jehovah’s</b> anger. For Gaza shall be forsaken, and Ashkelon a desolation; they shall drive out Ashdod <b>at noonday</b>, and Ekron shall be rooted up. (ASV) The only instance I can already tell MUST be referring to a different day is Lamentations 2:22, which speaks retrospectively of the first destruction of Jerusalem and prophetically of the second.
I fully intend to give you guys a hyperlink once I finish it!
