Revelation 17
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Tim,
I am presently studying Revelation 17, among others from LGV and BBI module 11. I have some questions:1. In your interpretation, “the beast” in Dan 7:11-12 is Rome which “was slain” in the middle of the tribulation, and “the rest of the beasts” are the remnants of Satan’s kingdoms which will remain during the second half of the tribulation. But how come this 3.5-year period is called “a season and a time” and not “a time, times, and half of time” as on other places describing the second half?
2. Is “the beast” on which the harlot rides (Rev 17) really Satan?
• You refer to similarities to Rev 12 which describes a beast also “having seven heads and ten horns”, but there it is called “dragon” and not “beast”. (The antichrist and the false prophets are both called “beasts”, but I cannot find any place where the devil is called “beast”.)• You refer to the same color of the beasts of the two chapters, but in chapter 12 its color is “pyrros” (“fierly red”) and in chapter 17 it is “kokkinos” (“scarlet”).
• You interpret “the beast… was, and is not, and will a ascend…” (Rev 17:8) as variations in Satan’s dominion during history. But is it not a better explanation that the beast is Antichrist who is Antiochos resurrected?
• The beast “will ascend out or the bottomless pit” (Rev 17:8) which is applicable for Antichrist (who “rises out of the sea”, Rev 13:1) but not for Satan (who is cast out of heaven, Rev 12:13).
3. You interpret the seven heads/kings as seven dominions ruled by Satan: After Eden, Nimrod, Egypt, Tyre, Seleucid empire, Rome, and Nazi Germany. These are other “kings” than the heads of the beast in Rev 13 which through connections to Dan 2 and Dan 7 usually are interpreted as Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greece, Rome, and resurrected Rome. (I believe this is (approximately) your view as well.) Is the difference depending on your belief that the beast in Rev 13 is Antichrist and the beast in Rev 17 is Satan?
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Anders,
1. IMO, the “rest of the beasts” in Dan. 7:12 refers to the remnants of the other previous kingdoms in Daniel’s vision, including Babylon (Iraq), Persia (Iran), Greece. These kingdoms covered various (often overlapping) parts of the world beyond the territory of the Roman Empire (4th Beast) at its peak. The remnants of these kingdoms will continue for a short time into Christ’s Kingdom. For example, “Egypt” is mentioned in Zech. 14 as having its rain withheld because of the refusal to send a delegation to Jerusalem for the Feast of Tabernacles. This implies that there will be some resistance to Christ’s Kingdom in the beginning. Micah 5 contains the prophecy of the “seven shepherds and eight princes” who will subdue the nations under Christ when He returns. Likewise, Isa. 34:8; Isa. 61:2; & Isa. 63:4 describe the “year of retribution” against the nations, which is also the Year of Release, the great 120th Jubilee. Only IF these other nations are defeated immediately at Christ’s coming would we expect the text to limit it to a 42-month period. But since this undefined time will apparently extend beyond the 42 months of Antichrist’s reign, and perhaps these nations will not all be brought under subjection to Christ at exactly the same time, the text leaves this period vague.
2. The word “beast” simply means animal. This term was used by Daniel for the various kingdoms in chs. 7-8. Satan is described as a “serpent” and a “dragon” which are “beasts.” In Rev. 12:3, the creature having seven heads and ten horns is called “a great, fiery red dragon” who is later identified in vs. 9 as “the great dragon, the serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan.” IMO, we must take into account what the seven heads mean. They cannot all refer to Antichrist. The “ten horns” are easy because they correspond to the ten horns in Daniel 7:7,20,24 which are on the fourth beast (Rome), and are the ten toes of Nebuchadnezzar’s image. Also, only ONE of the seven heads was wounded unto death and resurrected, not the entire “beast” with 7 heads. IMO, Antiochus is the ONE head on the seven-headed beast that was wounded and returns as Antichrist. He is the “eighth” sequential king who was also “of the [previous] seven” because he reigned previously but then reigns again in the end times. IMO, for this reason the “abomination of desolation” (which Daniel placed both in the past {Antiochus – Dan. 11:31} and in the future {Antichrist – Dan. 9:27; Dan. 12:11}), Jesus placed just before His return. Why? Because the story of Hannukah provides the precise model for what will occur in the end times, and is carried out once again by the same evil, Satan-possessed man. IMO, this is the only way to harmonize the data in Daniel and Revelation.
3. My interpretation of the seven heads is based first on the fact that the seven-headed beast is identified as Satan in Rev. 12. Also, the “seven heads” are portrayed as sequential manifestations of kings/kingdoms according to Rev. 17:10-11. Since these are sequential, they must be Satanic attempts to overthrow God’s plan for humanity using various kingdoms. IMO, each of these attempts involved a puppet (Antichrist) for Satan to use. These kingdoms are portrayed as a single “beast” because of their common connection to Satan’s dominion. I do not identify these as the sequence of kings in Nebuchadnezzar’s image which is the usual interpretation. IMO, it cannot refer to the Persian Empire because Cyrus was called by God “My shepherd, And he shall perform all My pleasure, Saying to Jerusalem, ‘You shall be built,’ And to the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.'” (Isa. 44:28 NKJ). Likewise, Nebuchadnezzar was God’s instrument of judgment against Israel. In the LGV notes I have given my best guess as to the identity of the seven past kingdoms that were used by Satan in his attempts to overthrow God.
1. The Serpent’s tricking Adam out of his dominion (Luke 4:6), then ruling through Cain (Gen. 4:17; 1 Jn. 3:12). This Satanic kingdom has “fallen” with the great flood.
2. Nimrod’s Babel, replacing God with pagan mythologies and false deities/demons (Gen. 10:8-12; 11:1-9). This Satanic kingdom has “fallen” by God’s confounding the languages.
3. Egypt under Pharaoh who attempted to kill all of the Hebrew boys, and thwart God’s covenant (Ex. 1:8-22). This Satanic kingdom has “fallen” by God’s ten plagues and the destruction of the army in the Red Sea.
4. Tyre in Ezekiel’s day, whose “king” sinned formerly in the Garden of Eden (Ezek. 28:12-19). This Satanic kingdom has “fallen” by God’s sending Nebuchadnezzar to overthrow it (Ezek. 26:1-9).
5. The Seleucid Empire of Antiochus IV who forced Israel to abandon God (Dan. 8:9-12; 10:21-39). This Satanic kingdom has “fallen” by God’s fatal plague upon Antiochus.
6. Rome in John’s day, seeking to exterminate Christians, by which John was currently imprisoned.
7. Nazi Germany under Hitler seeking to exterminate the Jews. He was to “continue briefly.”IMO, there has always been a single, invisible, satanic kingdom of darkness. But it has manifested itself at various times through physical means. The seven-headed beast is this satanic kingdom which began in the Garden of Eden when Satan defeated Adam via Eve.
Tim
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Anders,
Rev. 12 is the first look at the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns. Notice that there are “seven crowns” (Rev. 12:3). Thus each of the seven “heads” has a crown, representing seven consecutive kings/kingdoms. IMO, these are the seven “kings/kingdoms” also defined in Rev. 17:10, five of which had already fallen in John’s day, one was current (Rome), and the seventh was still future. The point of revealing the “dragon/serpent/devil/Satan” as having 7 heads and 7 crowns (one for each head) was to give a glimpse into the entirety of Satan’s kingdom throughout history, beginning in Eden. This “dragon” was poised to kill the “man-child” when he was born. This took the form of Herod’s killing of the infants, and then the crucifixion of Jesus. However, He was resurrected, and caught up to heaven. (vss. 4-5).
The “beast” in Rev. 12, which also has 7 heads and 10 horns, is the last-days manifestation of Satan’s kingdom. Notice that rather than having 7 crowns as in ch. 12, there are 10 crowns, one for each of the 10 horns. IMO this removes the focus of seven consecutive kings of the totality of Satan’s kingdom and instead focusses on the ten simultaneous kings in the end times that give their allegiance to Antichrist. I assume that all ten crowns are on the head that had previously been wounded unto death but was healed. Its arising from the Mediterranean Sea IMO signifies the old Roman Empire which controlled that sea and its entire coast. Also, in Rev. 13:3, John saw one of the heads as if it “had been wounded” to death (perfect tense) but the deadly wound “was healed” (aorist tense) already when John saw it arising from the sea.
Notice also that in vs. 16 that the false prophet causes an image to be made to (or for) the “beast” which was wounded by the sword yet lives. So this refers only to the one head which was of the former seven but is now the eighth according to Rev. 17:11. So while this end-time manifestation of Satan’s kingdom is connected to the whole history of Satan’s interaction with human kingdoms, the focus of chapter 13 is only on the one head that previously had a deadly wound but was healed, and the 10 kings reigning with him.
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Tim,
Forgive my persistence but I need to understand this.1. IYO, do the three beasts of Rev 12, Rev 13, and Rev 17 represent the same thing? (i.e. Satan)
2. Do the 7 heads of all three beasts represent the same things? (i.e. Satan’s past attempts to overthrow God in Eden, Nimrod, Egypt, Tyre, Antiochus, Rome, and Hitler)
3. Do Nebuchadnezzar’s statue and Daniel’s beasts represent other kingdoms? (i.e. the “traditional” Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greek, Rome I, and Rome II)
/Anders
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Anders,
The beasts in Revelation 12,13,17 represent Satan’s kingdom of darkness, including Satan himself and the principalities, powers, the rulers of the darkness of this age, spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realms” (Phil. 6:12). Daniel gives a brief glimpse of these in Dan. 10:12-14; Dan. 10:20-11:1; Dan. 12:1. In the NT, Paul gave a brief glimpse in 2 Thess. 2:6-8. The “Restrainer” is Michael and his angels (as in Dan. 10:13 & 12:1). Paul calls this kingdom of darkness which is restrained by Michael the “mystery of lawlessness” (2 Thess. 2:7) which was at work in Paul’s day through Nero and other means (such as Gnostic teachers). In Rev. 12, we have a clear picture of the direct conflict between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. This particular encounter is also briefly mentioned in Dan. 12:1 and in 2 Thess. 2:6-9.
Daniel, 2 Thess, and Revelation show some of the physical manifestations of this struggle between the kingdom of darkness and Michael’s forces. However, they are not identical to human kingdoms. The principalities and powers of darkness are on a short leash, being restrained. They are permitted limited interference and control of certain human kingdoms and specific rulers, such as the king of Tyre (Ezek. 28). Satan is called “the god of this age” in 2 Cor. 4:4 but that does not mean his kingdom is exactly identifiable with a particular nation or human kingdom, or even human government as many wrongly surmise. Human government is ordained by God, but Satan seeks to corrupt it and divert it from its intended use. Satan uses as pawns those rulers who give themselves over to him (and who God permits) such as Pharaoh.
Ultimately, there are only two opposing kingdoms in the spiritual realm, the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness. There has been one 6000-year war in the heavens, with many individual battles over the millennia. The nations that rise and fall are the pieces and players that come and go.
Daniel and Revelation at times show both the behind-the-scenes demonic struggle that has been ongoing since the fall, AND the human kingdoms which are the players used by both sides. The world kingdoms are not synonymous with the demonic principalities and powers.
God is also working through the angelic realm and by His Spirit in certain kingdoms as well. For example, He used Nebuchadnezzar to punish Israel, but also promised to punish Babylon as well after he was done with them. God raised up Cyrus of Persia to restore Israel to the land and assist in the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple. In Daniel 2,7,8 the dreams/visions concerned specific human kingdoms that would come to power in succession. While the Seleucid kingdom was a part of Alexander’s Greek empire, represented by the leopard with 4 winds (one of the wings), only one of the Seleucid kings, Antiochus Epiphanes, was a chief tool of Satan, and thus the demonically possessed Antiochus Epiphanes is represented by one of the 7 heads. That is this particular “head” which received the deadly wound is both the demonic spirit and its human host – Antiochus. The entire Seleucid kingdom is not one of the seven heads, only Antiochus Epiphanies and the spirit possessing him. Egypt had many Pharaohs. One of them promoted Joseph and God used him to save Israel. But the next Pharoah was a possessed tool of Satan, which God permitted for his own purposes, to overthrow all of the gods of Egypt and send Israel to the Promised Land. We do not list “Egypt” or even any particular dynasty as one of the seven heads, only that one Pharoah and the spirit that possessed him. Likewise, Tyre had a succession of kings, but only one of them was mentioned by Ezekiel as being in Eden (Ezek. 28:13). Germany has had many rulers, but I have only surmised Hitler and his minions as the tool of Satan, not the entire nation of Germany or its government.
Regarding the head which received the deadly wound, notice that it is said to come up out of the sea in Rev. 13 but in Rev. 17:8 it ascends out of the abyss. This because there is both a physical element (Antichrist) as well as the demonic element.
I believe it is a serious mistake to attempt to identify the seven heads in Revelation as merely human nations or kingdoms. Rather, we must distinguish between what is going on in the invisible spiritual realm in manipulating kingdoms and what can be observed in the physical realm in history, current events, and future prophesied events. I hope this helps clarify my thinking on this.
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