Anders G
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Tim,
Now, I see my mistake. I missed the time-gap between verses 13 and 14 of Rev 11.
Thanks!
/AndersTim,
I realize the benefits of the belief that the 3,5 days for the witnesses are literal days. However, this is the 2nd woe and the 3rd woe is comming QUICKLY where the kingdoms HAVE BECOME kingdoms of our Lord. So it seems to me that the wakening of the witnesses ought to be close to the end. How do you interpret this?[Rev 11:11-15 NKJV] 11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In the same hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake seven thousand people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. 14 The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming QICKLY. 15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world HAVE BECOME [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”
Raymond,
1. In Rev 11:2-3 it says the witnesses will prophesy during 1260 days, in direct opposition to the time the Gentiles will tread the holy city under foot for 42 months. Since the latter refers to the second part of the tribulation, the former ought to refer to the first half.
2. The witnesses have the power to turn water into blood (Rev 11:6) which happens during the 1st and 2nd trumpet (Rev 8:7,8). (We know the first 4 trumpets are in the first half since they are escalated in the first 4 bowls which are in the second half.)
3. “When they shall have FINISHED their tesitmony” (Rev 11:7), the beast will ascend from the earth and kill them (Rev 11:7), and the people will rejoice (Rev 11:10). This is the middle of tribulation since that is the time the beast will ascend, and there is no way people will rejoice right after the second half.
4. In Rev 11:11-14, the witnesses are resurrected after 3 and a half days, were taken to heaven, an earthquake came, and the 2nd woe (6th trump) was immediately (?) followed by the 3rd woe (7th trump). This is at the end of the tribulation which may indicate the witnesses will operate during the 2nd half. However, if the 3,5 days equal 3,5 years it fits perfectly. (I believe Tim interprets the 3,5 days literally, so it would be interesting to hear his view on this.)
All well! /Anders
Tim,
IMO, it is necessary to take two other time periods into consideration to understand the Day of the Lord correctly:1. The time between the end of the Tribulation and the return of Christ, i.e. the ten days from the Feast of Trumpets until the Day of Atonement (called *“Days of Awe” (DoA)* in Jewish tradition). I believe that these days contain the darkness (as shown by Matt 24:29 and Joel 2:30-31), the battle of Armageddon, seal 6, trumpet 7, messengers 4-7, bowl 7 and other dramatic events.
2. The year from the return of Jesus until the start of the Millennium, called *the year of recompenses (YoR)* in Isa 34:8. This is also the last Jubilee year to be intercalated after each 7:th of Daniels year-weeks, and it is necessary to get exactly 6000 years between the creation and the Kingdom. This year contains cleansing of the earth after all wars and environmental abuses, judgement of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet, the judgment seat of Christ where governmental tasks are distributed, the division of the land and the cleansing of the temple.
Hypothesis 1: Day of the Lord = DoA
In this case, the Day of the Lord is synonymous with the *”Day of Wrath”* as in Rev 6:17, 11:18, 14:19, 19:15 together with many OT passages. This would explain the violence in it as described in Zep 1:14-16 and Joe 2:1-2 among many others. The “Day” may still come “as a thief” since it may start with the rolling up of the sky (Rev 6:14, Isa 34:4) and Jesus becoming visible from the earth. The seventh trumpet may also sound during the whole period of ten days (as we discussed in the previous forum).Hypothesis 2: Day of the Lord = YoR
This has the obvious advantage that “a day” prophetically corresponds to a year, which is common in the Bible (e.g. Isa 34:8). And it fits perfectly with Peter 3 describing the purging of the land on the Day of the Lord. It also fits with all the positive things that will happen in the Day of the Lord. (You have quoted a few above.)Of course, there is also a possibility that the Day of the Lord is DoA + YoR, making it exactly of year.
None of the hypotheses is according to what the church fathers taught, but they probably did not know about DoA and YoR since God had not revealed (or rather “enlightened”) them yet. (His Spirit enlightens on a need-to-know-bases.)
What do you think?
Tim,
If the “Day of the Lord” is the millennium or part thereof, how do you interpret the negative things that will occur in it?[Zep 1:14-16 NKJV] 14 The great day of the LORD [is] near; [It is] near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. 15 That day [is] a day of wrath, A day of trouble and distress, A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, 16 A day of trumpet and alarm Against the fortified cities And against the high towers.
[Joe 2:1-2 NKJV] 1 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: 2 A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning [clouds] spread over the mountains. A people [come], great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any [such] after them, Even for many successive generations.
Raymond, I would say “1. Only at the mid point of the 70th week”.
Some clues are given in Rev 13:1-8:
* The first word is “Then” which refers to the verses before where the woman flees into the wilderness which is the second half of tribulation.
* In v.5, the beast (AC) is given authority for 42 months which refer to the second half.
* In v.6, he blasphemes the tabernacle, which is only possible after the Jews’ initial 3,5 years of worship and offerings in the temple.
* In v.7, he makes war with the saints and even overcomes them, which ought to be after “the beginnings of sorrows” when the saints “will be delivered up to tribulation and killed” (Matt 24:8-9).[Rev 13:1-8 NKJV] 1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like [the feet of] a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who [is] like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?” 5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Tim,
Yes, feel free to upload the graphic. I have now updated it with copyright information on this link:
https://gardeborn.se/Pictures_for_other_websaits/Book%20of%20Revelation-Overview.pdfYes, of course, you may use the graphic for any purpose you like.
The reason I wrote M47 was lack of space, but I have now expanded it to room “M4-7”.
I also made some other minor changes.
Also, please use new link where “overview” is correctly spelled:https://gardeborn.se/Pictures_for_other_websaits/Overview%20Revelation.pdf
Hi Raymond,
Just after I translated enclosed graphic, I read your second post. Even so, I hope you may find my picture helpful.It describes the flow of the Book of Revelation. On top there is the flow of history, and below is the flow of the Book. Revelation goes through the tribulation in four cycles and through the Kingdom in two cycles. Each tribulation cycle ends with its own version of the return of Christ. The cycles are defined by 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 messengers, and 7 bowls respectively.
Braided into the flow are 14 “interludes” which I have listed to the left and placed in the flow where *I believe* they belong. On the right there are quotes from the four versions of the return of Christ, and I have highlighted “the wrath of God” as a common denominator.
https://gardeborn.se/Pictures_for_other_websaits/Overwiev%20Revelation.pdf
I believe Rev 14:6-7 proves that genties may be saved during the tribulation:
[Rev 14:6-7 NKJV] 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting *gospel to preach* to those who dwell on the earth–*to every nation*, tribe, tongue, and people– 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for *the hour of His judgment* has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
“the hour of His judgement” is the tribulation and then the gospel is preached to every nation.
Yes, I believe I understand your thinking now. The distinction between the spiritual realm and the earthly manifestations was the key.
Thanks!Tim,
Forgive my persistence but I need to understand this.1. IYO, do the three beasts of Rev 12, Rev 13, and Rev 17 represent the same thing? (i.e. Satan)
2. Do the 7 heads of all three beasts represent the same things? (i.e. Satan’s past attempts to overthrow God in Eden, Nimrod, Egypt, Tyre, Antiochus, Rome, and Hitler)
3. Do Nebuchadnezzar’s statue and Daniel’s beasts represent other kingdoms? (i.e. the “traditional” Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Persia, Greek, Rome I, and Rome II)
/Anders
Thanks Tim,
What about the beast in Rev 13. Do you believe it also represents Satan? Or is it Antichrist with the 7 heads representing the manifestations of Antichrist?Tim, my aim is not to prove the hypothesis about the 2300 evenings and mornings. I realize this is not doable due to possible leap months and others. Instead, my aim it to make sure it cannot be falsified, and – considering your information – this seems to be the case.
It is also obvious that we cannot predict God’s supernational interventions (by definition). But I find it interesting that we neither can predict chaotic systems, even though they are deterministic. And as far as I can understand, the sun-earth-moon system is chaotic, meaning that its orbits may change in ways that are impossible to predict both concerning when and how it may happen.
Tim,
One example where the possible month-lengths can make a difference is the hypothesis that the “2300 evenings and mornings” in Dan 8:14 is the combined lengths of Antiochos’ and Antichrist’s defilements of the temple. Antiochos did it for 3 years, Antichrist did it for 3,5 years, and (3+3.5)x12 is 78 months. With an average monthly length of 29,53 days this turns out to be 2303 days, i.e. a difference of 3 days from Daniel’s prophecy.Is this difference explainable if a given month only can be 29 or 30 days?
