Randy A
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I will be interested to see what Tim says on this. In that phrase “until the times of the gentiles comes in”, I have always viewed the “coming in” to apply to the “times” rather than the “gentiles”. Meaning, until the fullness of the exile is fulfilled, which is Israel’s being cut off, making way for gentiles to be grafted in. I need to understand why gentiles would then be cutoff before Christs return. Perhaps I have been mistaken thinking it was just a phrase referring to the duration of the Roman exile.
The fact that the Apostle John is likely one of the two witnesses would exclude the possibility of the two individuals in Daniel 12 to be the two witnesses of Revelation 11 since John was not going to be born until well into the future.
I suppose I don not see her point. Just because one prophesied about “time, times, and half a time”, and this one was one of “two others”, is a far reach for an inference regarding one of the witnesses.
Look what John says in John 1:9
“I, John, both your brother and companion in THE tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,…..”
Then John is told he must prophesy again in Revelation 10:11.
These are strong clues that John will be one of the two prophets witnessing during the first part of the tribulation while worshipping is allowed. The “two others” of Daniel 12, would not include the Apostle John.
I would have to listen to that teaching again. I must have not caught that the gentiles would no longer be allowed to come to salvation. I viewed the “fullness of the gentiles” more to refer to the length of time of the Roman exile. It seems odd to me that the door would be closed on the gentiles at the beginning of Daniels 70th week.
We will wait for Tim to clarify.
Raymond,
The fact that “worshipping” is taken place during this time of measuring and the mentioning of the two witnesses in Revelation 11 demands this to be prior to the Abomination of Desolation.The temple worship is not going to be allowed after the AoD as it is the event that puts a stop to those things.
With the power that the two witnesses possess, it doesn’t stand to reason that the beast will have full reign which he will have after the AoD. The two witnesses could stop him if this were the case which is why the beast kills him as he terrorizes the saints.
I do not see any way the two witnesses are on the scene during the 42 months, or time, times, and half a time.
Hi Raymond,
Unless I am misunderstanding you, you are saying that when the “times of the gentiles’, or “fullness of the gentiles” comes in that gentiles will no longer be able to enter a covenant relationship with Christ?Those phrases, IMO, do not mean that gentiles cannot come to Christ, it is just a reference to the length of time God has turned away from Israel. Once that time is over, which is 1960 years from the time it began, their hearts will be turned back to the Father and vice versa. This does not mean that gentiles will be in exile in the same manner that Israel was. Gentiles would still be able to come to Christ. While the phrase “tribulation saints” is a phrase coined by the pre trib camp, I believe I understand how you are using it.
Even though Israel is currently in exile, that does not mean that individuals cannot come to Christ, but their hearts have been hardened as stated in Romans 11. When this all changes, that will be the beginning of Daniels 70th week. All of this prophecy stuff is enveloped in the exiles, once we understand those, everything begins to clear up.
Not sure I helped you any, but I thought maybe you were under the impression that gentiles cannot be “saved” once the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. That isn’t so much about gentiles as it is attention being turned back to Israel as they will be allowed to return.
If there is a specific passage that I am not recalling regarding the gentiles can no longer find salvation, please let me know in case me thinking your assessment is an inference rather than an explicit statement of scripture.
Love in Christ brother
RandyI think you are onto something with the second one regarding “all”. Perhaps “all” is relative, or exclusive to the assembly.
We are told in 1 John 2:15 to not love the world. In James 4:4 “friendship with the world is enmity with God”. All of this is due to the enemy of God controlling the world, until Christ returns and he is bound for 1000 years. Then the “all” is all inclusive.
Just my two cents.
